Get Real Estate Podcast

Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts within REALTOR® Associations

April 05, 2021 Maryland REALTORS® Episode 7
Get Real Estate Podcast
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts within REALTOR® Associations
Show Notes Transcript

Chuck speaks with three Maryland REALTORS®-- JoAnne Poole, Ashleigh Kiggans, and Wayne Curtis about their experiences in the real estate industry. Each guest shares their personal, unique perspectives on how to address the lack of diversity and inclusion within local associations. 

Speaker 1:

As we collectively advance our understanding of the historical context of the deeply embedded racism in America, and its continued impacts on people of color and indeed entire segments of our society. We find ourselves also looking for ways to establish and advance our goals of equity and justice. The real estate industry has had a particularly insidious role in creating an often violently maintaining the crippling segregation that resulted in among many other things. The present wealth disparity, for example, it takes a Levon black families to equal the wealth of just one white family in America right now. And real estate is one way that people build that. Well, realtor associations have also been complicit along with federal state and local governments in excluding entire populations from membership and enforcing segregated neighborhoods. And if you don't know this history, I suggest you read the color of law by Richard Rothstein and the black butterfly by Lawrence T. Brown. Also diversity means many things. It's not just about race, but includes religion, national origin, sexual orientation among other things. Hello,

Speaker 2:

I'm Chuck cascade , Maryland realtor CEO, and this is getting real estate, the Maryland realtors podcast. We are committed to increasing the diversity and inclusiveness within realtor associations. And we will be exploring that topic as well. Today I'm honored to be joined by three realtors whose stories I know you will find compelling and who will share not only their personal stories, but who represent precisely the kind of people we have asked to help show us the way forward to achieve demonstrable and meaningful change. My guests today are Joanne pool with Berkshire Hathaway home services, home sale Realty, where she manages offices in Baltimore city. Ashley Kiggins is vice president of Mack row

Speaker 1:

Until you and Frederick and Wayne Curtis of Remax. Right .

Speaker 2:

Vantage in Baltimore. Welcome Joanne Ashley and Wayne . Thank you, Chuck. Thank you Chuck. So Joanna, I want to start with you ,

Speaker 1:

Uh, we've known each other a long time and your story is so compelling. So if you take just a couple of minutes to tell our listeners, have your experiences been like specifically in real estate and what you've seen, how we making progress or is it better? You know, we don't spend a whole lot of time on your campaign for example, but there's, there's been undertones and overtones and , and you've experienced a lot. Could you give us a , just a quick kind of summary of what you've seen in real estate over the, how many again, how many years in real estate and then 34 years you've seen a lot. And tell us a little bit about your journey.

Speaker 3:

I sure. Well , Chuck, thanks again for having me on this podcast. And I'm so honored to be able to share some of my story along with Ashley and Wayne . So thank you. I would love to be able to say that all my real estate experiences have been so positive that I just can't imagine anyone thinking that there's anything wrong, but I can not say that in my career, I've seen multiple injustices. I've also seen prejudices shown and discrimination shown. Uh , one of the, one of the things that I'm going to share with you was , um, a little bit in the past, and I'm going to share a little bit about something that happened within a week where we think things are changing. And they're really not. There was a time when I showed a home within one of the counties in Maryland and I had the buyer with me, the home had everything that appeared that they wanted. It was basically on paper, their dream home. I knocked on the door to show the home after making the appointment. And when I got there, the owner was actually home, opened. The door, asked me who I was before. I could even get a chance to tell him who I was. And he said, I am very sorry that he didn't really say, I'm very sorry. He said you can't come in, but if your buyers would like to come in and see my home, they're more than welcome. And needless to say, the buyers were a white couple. And uh, so we had that discussion and the buyer asked the buyers. I said, do you want to go inside to see the home? If you do, I'll stand outside while you go in, they turned to me and said, there's no way that I want to go into this home. There's no way that I would live in a community that has this kind of discrimination and this kind of hatefulness. So we did leave. As recent as this week, I had an agent to contact me about trying to show a home and they were going to be in multiple offers. And as the manager of the office, needless to say, I get a lot of phone calls about a lot of different things. And this particular agent called, wanting to know why they're my, the , one of the agents in my office was not going to permit a love letter to go with their property. And , um , I tried to explain to her why bordering on fair housing issues that could come into play and things like that. And she said, Oh, I'm not worried about it. This , this guy is really nice. You know, he's an African. And he would do well in this community. And I'm like, no, you didn't just say that to me. No you didn't. And so I asked her, I said, repeat what you just said to me again. So she repeated it, but left out the African part. And I think she caught on, Oh my goodness. So , um, the biases that are still there, we think we can have conversations with people and say anything and everything that we can. And I'm hoping as we move forward in the future, that we get people to understand they can't. So that's a little bit about what's going on.

Speaker 1:

How has it changed in the 35 years you've been in the business?

Speaker 3:

I believe that the, some of the same things happen. People are just not as overt with it. They have different buzzwords for saying discriminatory conversations and they find the backdoor way of not permitting things to happen. In other words , um , you get in there and Oh, much person . Now, this is a story that one of the agents also told me that they went to show the house. They had the appointment, everything was fine. They got there, they were on a cam camera, one of the , one of the zoom things. And when the agent rang the bell, because we're all instructed, you not bring a bell, you just don't open the door. And the owner came over and was able to see who it was and said, I'm sorry, you can't go in. We have a sick person and we don't want you in the house. You can't prove that that's right or wrong. But if you had a , uh , an appointment scheduled and confirmed and all of a sudden, it's only when you ring the bell, does that appointment get canceled? Right . That that's the backdoor way of discriminatory practices

Speaker 1:

And yeah , something I hadn't thought about, but the more light we shed on it, I'm wondering you have me thinking now, is it just going to, we're not going to change people's minds overnight. So we know that. So is it really just going to push it underground? And, and, you know, then these things become more subtle and almost insidious in that way as not so overt because of the light we're shedding on it. But you know , it's still there. Is it just going to be kind of hidden in the shadows a little bit more? That's an interesting thought. I hadn't really,

Speaker 3:

There will be people who will want to try to do better. I believe that in my heart, but I also believe in my heart that there are people who don't want to be better because they, they that's in bread in there. You know, that was, that's a learned, it's a learned trait. You're not born with that, but you learn it. So it's embedded in you and embedded in you. And so they don't see anything wrong with it. And I don't know that we're going to be able to change the world, but I think we can change the majority as soon as people openly admit that by their biases exist. Yeah . Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Actually, I'm intrigued by your story, a young woman of color in commercial real estate in Frederick. So you check , you checked so many boxes, so many boxes for me, engaged with the Frederick County association. And that's how I first found out about you and Hugh Gordon called them . And he told me how great you are, shout out to you. And you're on our DEI advisor group, along with Wayne and chaired by Joanne of course. And your story is very compelling. And, and I'm excited to hear how all of that, how you got here, how you feeling about all of these things, because first of all, we know women in commercial real estate and you know, it's a , it's a male still, probably the single boast male dominated aspect of, of our, of our industry. You have so many boxes to check. Um, I , uh , constrained only by the time we have, but I'm fascinated by your story. So tell us a little bit about how you came to be where you are, what lessons we can draw from your experiences so far.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Chuck and great to be here with you and Wayne and Joanne , you know, I've been able to learn so much about Maryland realtors in general over the last couple of years, because you know, commercial agents don't tend to be as involved. Um , so it's been great to be able to be involved in all of this, you know, being a woman starting in front of brick in my late twenties now, early thirties and being a woman of color are just like you said, there's many things you just don't care about in commercial, let alone in Frederick County commercial real estate. It's been quite an experience. I, you know, I started my career in the DC market and then my kind of life. And my family took me up to Frederick and I decided that, you know, I , we were going to make Frederick our home. And so I wanted to work up here and I want it to be closer to be with my family and my kids. And, you know, the irony of all of this is I applied to so many companies up here in Frederick. I mean, so, so, so many real estate companies . And I had, you know , somewhat of a background and knowing what look at my resume, no one would give me a call back nothing. Um, and it wasn't until my broker boss and , uh, and very close friend, Rocky Mackintosh took a chance on me and said, you know, and I, I I'll bring her in. Let's see, let's give her a shot and really kind of trained me up through the market. Um, but one of the things that I learned as going through this market is, you know, perfect is a very, has the mindset still a kind of being a good old boys town. And what last , like a last name in this County? It means a lot that to have that behind you. I didn't have that. I don't have a last name. I don't have the family connections. I don't have the family that had lots of money. I grew up in a single parents, single mother, parent household. My mom was a school teacher. And , um, so I learned that you work hard for everything you want to provide and, you know, being, becoming a single parent myself up here, that was just one more thing to kind of add to the check box of , you know, fitting into a certain type of demographic as I've kind of decided. And I think actually it was Joanne who maybe said this to me. And one of our meetings was that you may be the first end that has kind of resonated with me. Cause I've always been, I've always been the, the token and everything I've done in my entire life. I've always felt like I was always the token. I was, I was everyone's black friend. And you know, it kind of has, it's something that I've used to bother me, but now I see it as something that actually kind of propels me forward, you know, but in , in a market where you have, you know, the guys around me have all been great, but they've all had to get to know me. You know, even our association doesn't have the diversity that I would like to see. We have, we have people within our association who are confusing to black men who look nothing alike, what is light-skinned and has hair. The other is dark skin and are calling them , meet each other all the time constantly happens. And you know, when, when people make a comment about it and I actually brought it up to someone and they said, Oh yeah, I think that was me. You know, that kind of just ignorance still exists . I mean, this was something that happened, you know , a year and a half ago. You know, those are the kind of things that, that we still see out there. And , you know, when I'm driving into properties, a lot of my colleagues will just drive onto a farm and say, Oh, we'll see what they say, we'll drive on. I know that they're the to drive onto someone's property unless they know I'm coming.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought of that, but that makes perfect sense. Right. As a, is it, it's , it's an issue of belonging.

Speaker 4:

It's an issue of, of, of, of just being, getting into the circle, being accepted into the circle. I think of, of everything. And you know, this is not to say that anyone has been directly mean or nasty to my face, but you can feel that there is a, that there's a box . And you know, I , I've only been in this industry up in this market for six and a half years in the Frederick market, you know, it's been around for the 34 years. I can only imagine that the things that you see and then, you know, from what I've seen, even in the last few years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Is it any better now than when you started or , uh, and at number one and number two, what's what do you see that we can do now to make it better?

Speaker 4:

It's absolutely better than when I started, but there's still a long way to come or to go kind of , um, it's I like to think that it's better because I'm, I'm helping to make that change. And then I'm helping to try to make people feel comfortable and to feel like you don't have to look a certain way or you don't have to carry a certain last name to be successful, you know, it's uh , so I, I do think that that , that it's starting to kind of, you know, everything that's happened in the last year, I'm sure has propelled things, but what I, what I want to say is it starting, but I want to see it continue my biggest fear with everything right now, with all these, you know, DEI groups that are diversity groups is that this is going to be a short-term thing, because this is popular right now. And that's my biggest fear. And so what can, you know, what can Maryland realtors do is to continue with this message and to really grow on this message, because it's, I, you know, I'm a part of maybe seven different focus groups. I've been a part of in the last couple of months, which is, I appreciate it. But I also want to , I want to know that this is actually going to make something that we're not doing it because we feel like we have,

Speaker 5:

Right. Yeah. We're going to talk about that , uh , before we adjourn today. So yeah. Thank you, Wayne. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in real estate and acceptance or not, as you say, well, I'm, I'm honored like the rest of my colleagues to be, to be here. And I'm glad I'm able to bat clean up in this discussion. I have been in real estate for 23 years and before that had several other jobs and other careers and have lost a job primarily because I came out at work. So I had, I had chosen real estate in a way because I thought that it would be a little more accepting and I could take more personal responsibility for my own work in experience. And fortunately the first office that I was educated in and became a realtor and the , uh, the office manager was openly gay. And there were quite a few, probably at least half of the staff and agents in that office were also in that community. And so there was, I'm very happy to say, I , I felt completely comfortable there. And so I had had escaped some of the tensions that I know that other folks have experienced as they sort of came out in , in real estate and other places. And I can say the same about my current company. What I feel that I've been able to do is be through through organizations like the national association of gay and lesbian real estate professionals, which I'm a member of and, and have gotten referrals through help. Other folks in , in, in the general public have better experiences I've had in the last three years, I've had two same-sex couples come to me after having experienced , uh , what they thought were discrimination and discriminatory treatment by other members of the profession and who were just heaving sighs of relief to finally be able to work with someone that they knew, understood who they were and understood their needs and that they didn't have to worry about what I was thinking all the time about who they were. And you know, that I think that's, that's a huge part of what we, what we are here to do is not just to open up the field for folks who are in our community, but also to serve the people who are in the general public, who need that kind of understanding from the person who's going to help them make one of the most important decisions that they're going to make financially and socially in their lifetime as to where, where are they going to live and where are they going to start their family?

Speaker 1:

Thank you for that. And two kind of sides to the same coin, which is acceptance of our clients, whether our representation of them has an impact on the transaction. And then also wanting to focus on acceptance by the realtor associations and whether we're doing well, let me put it this way. We are at towing and now we haven't historically done enough. So the efforts we're trying to we're making to do better are longterm to Ashley's point is not anything we're going to solve today or tomorrow, but hopefully ongoing and , and to make meaningful change over time. On the one hand, on the other hand, I realized that a lot of , uh, a lot of people have been hearing this for a long time, Oh, be patient it'll get better, be patient we'll do better and things don't get better. So I do understand the tension between wanting to make meaningful change now. And, but also understanding that a lot of this, because it's so systemic and embedded is going to take some time to , to really resolve. So I do want to focus a little bit, however, on what role realtor associations specifically, because that's our target audience, or what can we do to increase diversity and inclusiveness that is not perceived as tokenism. I really love hear your perspective on that as well, actually, but Joanne you're, you're part of the , uh , at Maryland realtors or DEI advisory group, what is it that you hope to accomplish through the hospices of that group? Thanks Chuck. We see the need to become a better broader association by entering into intentional inclusion and finding ways to make sure that we're tapping people on the shoulders who feel as though the association is not for them. There've been so many times that our members have heard horror stories from another member that they really feel as though I'm not getting ready to go down that path. I am not getting ready to be humiliated that I'm

Speaker 3:

Not getting ready to feel ostracized, and I'm not going to be the only one in the room. So I think it's people of diverse backgrounds who have to be the ones to go out and tap people on the shoulders, because it sends a broader, bigger message than someone who is, who is already part of the system, who says I'd like to like you to get him involved. And the only reason I say it like that is because there is an undertone when it's coming from someone who's already in the system being involved, who is not a person of color when they tap somebody on the shoulder. It's okay. So you want me to be the token to come in because you don't have enough where I feel as though when those of us who are involved and we are in the system who started and felt like we, the only ones who say, it's, it can't be about just me. We need you to be involved. The doors are open for you. And so I just feel as though if we can get to a point of having brought a diversity on committees, brought a diversity on outreach, brought a diversity in communications that we will find a bright future. It would be where we have to start and how we have to start. And helping people find equity in their businesses. It's all about the person's business. All of the association business that we do is to help our members and their business. We can't lose that foundational piece. It is not to just have a face at a table it's about helping each other in our businesses. So, Ashley, what, what does diversity mean? Number one, it's bigger than just racial diversity. And how do you strike that balance that Joanne mentioned between wanting to be more inclusive and yet how to pick the messengers to do that kind of recruitment that we have identified as a need, but to avoid that kind of suspicion that you're being chosen to be the token. Cause that I think that's a really critical piece here.

Speaker 6:

So I think you're right. Diversity is , is so much deeper than just looking at the color of someone's skin. I mean, it's all different types of religion, diversity. It is, you know, sexual orientation, diversity. It is it's culture diversity because just one , someone may have the same skin color or someone else, but your culture may be a complete different from someone , um, from that same person. So I, you know, I do think that's important and I think that's something, you know, one of the things I was really happy to see in our advisory group, RDI advisory group too, was that it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't just about black and white. It was so nice to see Hispanic. It was so nice to see someone from the Asian culture. It was so nice to see so many different types was somebody representing LGBQ . It was just nice to see that type of diversity because I think that's where people, there's a disconnect. And I think people focus so much on just the black and white diversity. They forget about all the other groups that are a part of that. And, you know, I know it was some of the other groups I've sat in on, it seems to just be a black and white type of situation, but there's something so much deeper than that. And talking about who should be the ones kind of communicating that. I do think you should be getting someone from those communities to communicate it. It means a lot more. If someone is saying to that person, Hey, look, we want you a part as a part of this. I'm a part of this. Here's my personal experience. Let me share my experience with you. And I want you to share your experience with us. So I think that is so important. And I, you know, one of the things I think is important to keeping this going is what Maryland realtors can do a lot. We have to trickle this down into the associations because that is where a lot of our members I feel like are really going to see the change first, before they see it at the top.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. We had leading with diversity session on Friday of last week with Fred Underwood, from the national association of realtors. And he gave some really good perspectives on, especially this idea of recruitment and kind of being an ambassador, which is what we're going to be asking of you three, among others to those communities. And he centered around this concept of mattering that people will want to be engaged, but only if they feel they matter. And you know, when , what would it take, do you think for us to really meaningfully reach out, to, to increase our diversity and inclusiveness, in other words, the path forward and importantly from you, what is, what would success look like? Cause I know for me, just personally for me, success is not needing initiatives like this. Let me just put it that way. If you all could get to a point where you came, probably not me, but to somebody and say, you know what, we're doing such a good job that we don't need this anymore. You know, that to me is success. That's probably not in my lifetime, but it's an aspiration, but you know, even more, more immediately, what does, what does success look like to you

Speaker 5:

In many ways? I think that success comes when , uh, there are folks in the room where everyone knows that it doesn't matter who is speaking, but that their ideas and their experience and their expertise is valuable and matters a great deal to the success of our joint endeavors. And that in many ways is the Mark of not just that we don't need these kinds of initiatives anymore, but that whatever we have done has been successful in letting people know that we're here, actually just being in the room and contributing and being treated like everybody else. I mean, in many ways, you know, Ashley was talking about, about the difference between a racial difference, which is obvious to folks who are in the room most of the time, but, you know, as a 60 year old white man, I am not always one who raises people's expectations that I'm a member of a protected class. And so it is sometimes incumbent upon me to make sure that in non-aggressive and non-confrontational ways, I make sure that people know that I'm in the room and that I'm listening to what is being said and the attitudes and the dispositions of conversations in a way that perhaps they're not quite expecting that I am. And that, that has been important, particularly in , in parts of my professional life, where I've managed offices and educated had been an educator and been in front of classrooms and have been privy to attitudes or conversations that if I had not been in a position of authority, I would probably have, have made sure people knew I found offensive. And so trying to find a way to gently, but firmly let people know that that's really not appropriate. And here's why, and because that affects me, that you're talking about someone that I know and you're talking about me and experience that I have had. And so it takes, it takes some bravery sometimes for people to stand up and say, that is really not appropriate, but also just to make sure that they know that. And in many ways to learn how to self censor . And I think once they get to that point, they start to realize that these attitudes are just not appropriate and we need to, we need to start working on eliminating them. And when we can do that and people can, I think I , you , I have used the words in, in some of our groups as joyfully and unselfconsciously participate and nobody has to have that kind of second thought because they know that they are all on the same page and that we are all equal and that we are all valuable. And we all recognize that without having to, you know , bludgeon somebody over the head with it. I think that's when we'll know that we've reached success.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I love that idea. And also that the obviousness of it, I think is, is what sometimes I really don't understand because we , we know demonstrably provably that having a diversity of opinion, having a diversity of experiences in a room makes the decision-making much better. And it's , it's like, so self-evident that we, to me, just to focus on that alone might be a big help to say, well, how could you not want to hear from a diverse group of people so that you make good decisions? So I think that's, you know , for me, part of the formula is to continue to focus on that. Joanne , what does success look like to you?

Speaker 3:

I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with Wayne when we can get to a point of making decisions, even if we have to stop and think about it for a second, but we don't feel embarrassed that we have to think about it, that we actually make decisions based one well-rounded inclusiveness versus, Oh, I don't want to bring that up because somebody is going to think the worst may no , it's an it's it's when people can get to a point of sitting at a table together and have open conversations that are positive and not negative about across the board. Inclusiveness, that is success to me is the communication skills that we bring to the table where we can talk about diversity and inclusion. And the other part is, is when we can all fully help our colleagues hear what they say when we get comfortable sharing with people. I don't really think you meant to say what you said, but I'm going to share with you what I heard and having a person sit back and say, well, that was not my intent, but I'm going to learn from that experience to me, that's success.

Speaker 1:

There's a model that, that I have been stuck in. And I have to be honest with you and recruitment of people to be involved in , in the association, Joanne, you know, this as well as anybody it's , uh , it's , uh , it's challenging and how we go about that proverbial tap on the shoulder. I feel like we've been stuck in a, a model of identifying recruit them and then we mentor them. Right. And that that's been the kind of model would you agree? You know, and, and I think there's a new model though, then . And , uh , Fred talked about it , uh , in the leading with diversity and, and instead of identify, recruit and mentor, it's discover, engage and realize. And I have to tell you, I got the hairs on my arms stood up and I got chills. I it's just it, a light bulb went off. And I just think that is, that's such a more , uh , fulfilling kind of model for what we're trying to accomplish. And I keep saying this, Ashley , but you are like the perfect person for me. You represent so much of what we need in, in realtor organizations. So, you know, w is that a model that you think we can actually utilize to make that meaningful change and , and increase our diversity and inclusiveness as realtor organizations so that people do feel more welcome ?

Speaker 6:

Absolutely. I actually just wrote down those three words, discover, engage, and realize because they are very powerful and very impactful. You know, I think it's, those are things to be very important because I think one of the things we want to make sure isn't happening is that people aren't just being selected because of their, their diversity that they can bring. You know, I don't want to just be put on something. And I ask for the last couple of years, every I'm , I sit on multiple boards here in Frederick County and I've asked each one of them. Why did you select me? I want to know the reasoning behind it, because I want to know that I was selected because of my qualifications. And not just because you need to diversify your board so that you have other other colors. And I think this goes back to a lot of what Wayne and Joanne were both saying is, you know, when, when we feel like that inclusion is happening, when we can have those conversations and when we can walk in rooms and you know, not right away start thinking, all right, how am I going to be perceived in this room? Cause I, I personally, I walk in rooms every single day and that's the first thing I think, how am I going to be perceived? Well, let me, let me look around and scan the room and see, how am I going to be perceived? Where am I going to be comfortable? Or do I need to make sure I am on my tip top best behavior? Not that I wouldn't be, but in my behavior that , you know, because if I, if I make one , one move the wrong way, it's going to be, Oh, well, you know what ? Yeah , that makes sense. That that's , that's just what her people are

Speaker 1:

Like. Yeah. You're the representative.

Speaker 6:

Absolutely. Right. And I take that huge on myself as making sure I represent and I, I want to change the minds of people. That's my goal is to change the minds of people who may have had one perception. I I'm sure Joanne has been doing that for years. I'm sure Wayne has been doing that as well. You want to change the mind of what people think you shouldn't have to walk into a room and established what people's mindset is of that type of that type of person from that type of group.

Speaker 5:

Right. Chuck, there is, there is a marvelous phrase from, I think it's Dr. King's letter from the Birmingham jail, which talks about the fierce urgency of now. It is one of my favorite lines that he ever wrote or spoke. And that's, to me, the, the, the answer to , Oh, just wait, just wait. Be patient it'll all happen in time. Well, no, it doesn't all happen in time because we've been waiting for a very long time, some communities longer than others. But if we just sit back and wait, it will never happen. Each of us has to take the agency, which is a word that we are all very familiar with to, to move things along and have it fiercely urgent to do it now, because it is better for our business. I mean, think of all the money that we're leaving on the table for just selfishly, if we suddenly exclude huge sections of the population from feeling like they're being treated equitably fairly and can trust the representation that we offer them. I mean, it's, it should be a no-brainer if people will just get out of themselves and out of whatever biases or cultural , uh , potholes they were raised in and just poke up their head and look around , uh, it should be plainly obvious

Speaker 3:

Check . I would like to add something and it's a jumpstart from Ashley and Wayne, and that is people who have to go into a room every single day and prove themselves. Yeah . And we should not have to prove ourselves every step every day. I think once we've reached milestones that we've done, that we were selected and , and people can look in our backgrounds and know, and not wait for us to come into a room and see what you have to say today to prove yourself worthy of being in that room. Yeah. Joanne , I know that's been a big part of your entire career, so, and have bravely confronted that and I respect you immensely for that. Thank you. That's all the time we have

Speaker 2:

Today. Wayne Curtis, Ashley Kagan , Joe ed Poole . I can't thank you enough. I'd like to make this episode one. We cause we scratch the surface on so many things. I could, we could do this for hours, but in respect of all of your time, thank you again for joining us. And hopefully we can have you back and a privilege to talk to each of you today and to our listeners. Thank you for the privilege of your time. This is get real estate, the Maryland realtors podcast. I'm Chuck cascade, Maryland realtors, CEO. Thanks as always to our esteemed producer, Josh Woodson, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts like us. Share us, give us five stars if we've earned them and please give us feedback, including guests you'd like to see us invite or topics to explore until next time be well, stay safe.