Get Real Estate Podcast
Get Real Estate Podcast
What Is True Equity? How Do You Measure DEI Success? Why REALTORS® Are Essential In Navigating The Home Buying Process
Maryland REALTORS® CEO, Chuck Kasky, is joined by Maryland REALTORS® Diversity Equity and Inclusion Advisory Group Chair Terring Wang, and Vice Chair, Wayne Curtis, to discuss the increased DEI efforts, measuring outcomes, and how to integrate equitable behavior in a corporate environment.
Terring and Wayne share their individual perspectives on how to achieve equity in the real estate industry and what brokerages should be aiming towards as they serve and assist their clients and communities.
For more information, visit: www.mdrealtor.org/DEI
For the uninitiated, D E I stands for Diversity, equity and Inclusion. And it is a critical topic for any business in today's rapidly changing world. Today we will explore the importance of having a strong D E I program in place to ensure that everyone in the organization feels respected, valued, and has an equal opportunity to participate and succeed. Every organization has its own unique culture, but ultimately, d e I should be at the forefront of every organization's agenda. In this podcast, we'll discuss why and how you can create a corporate culture that prioritizes d e i , how to partner with organizations and communities to promote diversity and how to measure and monitor your d e I progress Over time, we'll also hear from leaders on how they have implemented successful d e I initiatives. By the end of this podcast, listeners will have a better understanding of the importance of D e I , how you can engage your organization to recognize and embrace D e I principles and how to create an inclusive and equitable workplace. Hello, I'm Chuck Caskey , Maryland Realtors, c e o , and you are listening to Get Real Estate, the Maryland Realtors Podcast. My guests today include Terry Lang , who is current chair of Maryland Realtors, d e i Advisory Group. She's been in the real estate investment business for over 15 years with her C I P S designation that stands for Certified International Property Specialist. She is close and very active to diplomatic and international community. Herring has served as an executive board member and treasurer of the Asian Real Estate Association of America DC chapter. And joining us also is Wayne Curtis, who is currently vice chair of Maryland Realtors, d e i Advisory Group. Wayne has been a real estate licensee for the past 25 years in the Baltimore Metro region for his work in promoting home ownership in the area National Association of Realtors. Honored him with a home ownership hero award in 2012. He is an Inc . Incre , an accredited buyer representative or a b r and holds the with diversity designation from N NA R . Welcome Terry and Wayne.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Jeff . Thank you.
Speaker 3:Or have us .
Speaker 1:So as an aside before we jump into that, that intro was written by chat g p t <laugh>, before I edited it , I went , I said right , a 300 word introduction to a podcast episode on d e I and that's pretty much what it came up with. I edited it pretty heavily, but , um, I thought it was interesting. It wasn't exactly on point cuz we're gonna be talking about mainly real estate and it was a more generic one, but there you go. Chat G P t I just had to try it. <laugh>
Speaker 4:Impressive
Speaker 1:<laugh> <laugh> . So even though we talk about this a lot, I I hope that there are some people listening who are interested in this and maybe not as steeped in the d e I language as we are. So, Terry , I'll start with you. What does d e I mean to you in the broader community and then in in real estate specifically?
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you Chuck , to having me today. And I think d e i , we recently heard a lot about this d e I wordings and from my understanding, the d e I stands of fair treatment and full participation to all peoples of all peoples. I think that's , uh, something that I can better understand this words and bring it to us. I think there's a lot of unfairness and also exclusions in our community somewhere here and there. But then I think , uh, the full understanding of a fair treatment to all people. So that's something that I think is very important to us these days.
Speaker 1:And why is it important in real estate, especially from your perspective
Speaker 4:As a real estate professional? I think Fair Housing is one of the mandatory courses that we have to go through of statewide and nationwide Fair Housing. The most important core things that teaching us is treat peoples fairly when we're practicing real estate. So in this case, d e I seems makes more important role while we are protect , uh, practices , the real estate as well. Because when you do the business, no matter you, you are you thinking you are helping people. Actually we're as a real realtor, we are at the service business. So we are here to helping our client to achieve their real estate goals. But then if you do have this mindset of fairly treated people to all, then I think you have more opportunities comes to you, then it definitely, well elevating you become only one small group of a realtor to a widely ranged realtor.
Speaker 1:Wayne , same question.
Speaker 5:When I think of what d e I is, the question comes to my mind is just, you know, making sure that people understand what it's not mm-hmm . <affirmative> and, you know, probably some of the resistance that that your chat G P t , uh, intro talked about, you know, is that people, people will look at you and say, well, well we already have equal opportunity laws, we already have fair housing laws. What, what now, now what is this extra layer on things? And I, to me it's, it's simple and how many , I know I come at it from a Judeo-Christian background. So for me it's as simple as the golden rule. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . It's not just treating somebody fairly because you have to, it's not just making sure that people's opportunities are, are equal and then all , all all's fair gain for me, d e i means that you treat other people as you would like them to treat you. You honor their humanity, you honor their dignity, you honor their intelligence, you honor their ability to determine what is right for them. And, and that , and that's not just socially, that that's in business, that's in housing, that that's in everything. You know, this is all simply about making sure that people and their preferences and their their own life goals and their own priorities are given the same validity and dignity that you give your own.
Speaker 1:The two threads I'd like to explore, the first is the difference between equality and equity. Cuz we talk about the e and d . E I is equity and, and I wanna echo <laugh> , another e both of you kind of touched on this, and over the years when I would teach fair housing, of course, one of the things we always say is treat everybody the same. Right? That's why we have checklists and you ask the same questions and you don't change the questions you ans you ask depending on whether that person is from a different country or has a different skin color or et cetera . And we, so we've, we've drilled that into people and, and, and so people have come to the conclusion and I think, Terry , you said that that fairness is part of it, but I think Wayne alluded to the fact that sometimes equality is not enough, right? So the difference between equity and equality is important because as we bring underrepresented and and groups that have been subject to historic discrimination, treating them the same today in 2023 is not enough. Right? Because you , you can't address the systemic discrimination and lack of opportunity that many groups have had in this country by now, just saying to as of today, everybody's the same because they're not, they haven't had the same opportunities to develop wealth or to grow and pass on wealth to, to attain home ownership. We still have widely divergent home ownership rates, et cetera . So Wayne , I'll start with you. What , what , when you talk, when you think about the difference between equality and equity, how, how do you explain that to people?
Speaker 5:Treating people equally doesn't necessarily tell you how well you're treating them. Yeah. Or from what perspective? Right. That fairness is evaluated. And so, you know, I, as a white male , um, at it with a different set of historical mm-hmm . <affirmative> measure sticks of what, what fairness is than people from different cultures, people from different races. I also come at it as a gay man with understanding that I have felt occasionally the sting of what it is not to be treated fairly. Right. And so equity comes at it from a very different perspective. Equity is like, everyone needs to have a stake in the system. Everyone needs to have a stake in what's going on. And that's the equitable stake. It's not just being treated fairly because you can be treated fairly and, and people treat you as if you have no stake in what's going on at all. And so I think that's, that's the real crux between the difference of the two terms.
Speaker 1:Karen , you have , uh, perspective on that?
Speaker 4:Yes, I think I'm very much agree that what Wayne just said, but then from my personal perspective as a Asian woman and also as a second, the first generation of immigrants to us , I think I can feel sometimes differently when I just first came to this country and versus that, you know, now and when I was into the real estate and become a real estate expert , um, you know, professionals then , um, then and now I feel quite different when I experiencing that and equity in terms of the fairness treatments to all, I think I can describe that I feel sometimes a lot of improvement in our community these days when I just came to us and I think I just finished my school and I, when I came here and there's not a lot of Asian, too many Asians like nowadays mm-hmm . <affirmative> . So sometimes I will feel that I look odd than other people's. Uh , then sometimes at that time, of course my English is, you know, not as good as of that even though I'm still not that good. But then, you know, <laugh> <laugh> , yes. So I feel very , um, confident. Mm . Okay . And then because of that, so then sometimes I got differently, you know, different treatments from the people. So what I went, but the most important thing I , I feels like right now, d ei that concept has been promoted widely . And then people getting more acknowledgement of this mindset and people gets a little bit more and more knowledge of how important that d e i existing in our community. So I can feel that, you know, well improvement. But again, I agree what Wayne just said, the way that you treat person and sometimes get the same level of a return. For example, if I see some of the new immigrants from other country , uh, from other races, even though their English is not very good or you know, they are not, seems like at the same, you know, levels as you think you are, but you know, a lot of people, they can just naturally treat you differently than other peoples. So that's, I think it's the way that you should think about how the p you wanted two people treating you actually identify that how you should treat other peoples. Yeah . So that's why I always yes. Feels like this is what I feel is like equity. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's really important. And it's a great way to say it because not everybody needs the same thing to succeed, right? So we're just starting from different points. So if somebody is starting at a place where they've lacked the opportunity to gain wealth, to build a good credit score to, you know, name any metric by which we're gonna be evaluated in our pursuit of a home, for example, well if I haven't been given those opportunities treating me the same as somebody who has had those opportunities, that's not enough. That's I will not succeed. And, but yet people will feel, well I treated you the same, it's your minimum six 80 credit score. I treat everybody the same. So I'm , I've haven't violated fair housing cuz I've cheated everybody equally. Well guess what? Somebody else, maybe they needed an alternative credit scoring model to be able to get that house or that apartment or whatever. And so to me, equality's not enough equality is treating everybody the same. Equity is giving people what they need to succeed, which means that we have to accept that not everybody is starting from the same place. Does that make sense? Yes,
Speaker 5:Absolutely. That's perfect.
Speaker 1:Right ? So why is, why is, why is it important? What, what is the advantage of d e i initiatives in in your personal life and your business? How does that improve your, let's make it self-serving <laugh> , I'm gonna do better in business with this mindset. And, and and how has that helped you? Let's start with you, Wayne.
Speaker 5:It has helped in the sense that I am able to not only feel like I'm a trusted confidant and advisor to the people that I work with, but it also helps me sort of ferret out the differences that my viewpoint might throw between us being able to understand where my, the source of my bias, where the source of my experience comes from, and discounting it and setting it aside and trying to come at it from the same perspective as my client is coming from. It builds marvelous teamwork, but it also helps me get a window into other people's experiences and other people's emotions and, and needs in a way that I just find really fascinating and, and very enriching at the end of the day. Because when , when people come to you to buy a home, you know, they are, we know it all the time. They're investing in, in one of the biggest investments that they will ever do. It it the source of generational wealth and they're trying to invest in that. And so they become not just friends, they , they, they look at you as somebody that who actually has their back and they trust you and it actually makes the transaction go much easier when they don't have to feel that they need to second guess what my motivations are. Uh , and if I come at them with my set of biases intact. And my advantage is , you know , that I've had , uh, throughout life , uh, coloring my view of what they should be able to do. It, it , it actually does make things go easier as an interpersonal relationship between us. And then as the transaction goes on, it makes the transaction easier too.
Speaker 1:Hearing you're , you're nodding no they can't see us, but what would you like to add to Wayne's?
Speaker 4:Yes. Well my personal experience I working with different peoples, I think a really great , um, success to, to my personal career cuz uh , when I think, let's start , um, sometimes when we have a listing or have a properties to, to for sale and we actually getting a lot of , uh, inquiries from different peoples. So at that time you will be able to know a lot of different kind of , uh, peoples from different communities. So how you react, it really changed the way that you see , uh, them. Cuz as I mentioned, really professional, we are helping , uh, we are the helping business. You know, we at that time, if you are the listing agent, you are representing the sellers. Your best interest is helping your clients who sell the property. But on the other hand, you are getting a lot of increase from peoples then I actually personal experiences, I had a listing in DC then my clients , uh, call me , uh, uh, there's a group of a client call me, they don't speak English at all. Okay. And then, but they went to my office and then saw me , um, at the, you know, at the front desk and they told me that we saw your listing listed, we really like this property, then they don't speak English very little. Then I was helping that very fortunate that there is one agent in our office , uh, speak Spanish. Mm-hmm . So the the group, this group of peoples are from Columbia and they really needed boy housing. So they become our tenant through all those , uh, translation and everything, they successfully become our client's tenant. Then from that experience, even now we are property managing this property. But then they , they asked me to find the doctor's office for them because he , she's a doctor. Okay. She, I know that she can definitely find a agent to helping them , but the way that I treat them , I think they feels like even though we don't speak , uh, same language, but they feel that I'm sincerely wanted to helping them. Yeah. And then yeah, all they need is a interpreter, right? Yeah . That's heart to heart . Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , yes . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And also another , uh, example is our business. Most of our, our, our realtors actually I think the database is from , uh, the business from referrals. Hmm . Recently , uh, my client referral me a new client. I never met them before on the zoom meeting for the bio consultation, I acknowledge that they are a gay couple. Okay. So I feels like I'm so honored, honestly from my bottom of my heart, cuz I know, you know, I can be able to serve as their realtors and then I can know in more , uh, different way of the peoples who are different than me. Mm-hmm . So I think this, this is a respect that I can be able to serve them and then know helping them to get what they want in the real estate. So, I mean, after first meetings with them, I feels like they feel the same ways cuz they see I'm respecting them and then they, you know, that that whole process makes me feel very achieved. This is something that important things that I think I wanted to be a realtor. I love what I do. So this is ex I think potentially can help all our realtors to enhance your experience of being a realtor, not only helping.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a perfect segue to, to my next question, which was we talk about diversity and, and we included in , in our d e i advisor group as , as you guys know, we have representatives from what we, the multicultural or underrepresented groups and and, and the organizations, whether it's the LGBTQ plus Alliance or AA or the Hispanic Alliance and, and some others. How are we going to not get segmented? I mean, part of my concern is, and and you addressed it beautifully, Terry , is that we would focus on, you know, just our Asian clients or just our l g BT Q clients and not engage in real diversity. Do you know what I'm trying to say? So, so how do you attract not just a people who maybe have been underserved, but be open to serving anyone and, and in a meaningful way. And that's the real, where , what I mean by diversity, right? And how do we avoid the segmentation of the market where, you know, the Asian members only serve Asian community or Hispanics only serve Hispanics, et cetera . So I don't know when you wanna take a shot at that or is that even a legitimate concern? No ,
Speaker 5:Well it's, it's a legitimate concern until you start to realize that, that people are usually more than one group.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well that's true too. Yeah. Good point. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 5:I mean, you know, I know, I know people who are African, Hispanic, gay, transgendered, I mean, you know, whi which group, which group do you wanna say ? Yeah ,
Speaker 1:Well it's kinda like the census question, right? Yeah . <laugh> ,
Speaker 5:So,
Speaker 1:You know, on race . Yeah . Well that's gonna be meaningless soon. Right?
Speaker 5:And and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not, that that person who, who represents all four of those groups isn't necessarily gonna come to a white straight realtor. Yeah. I mean, we, we ca we are past the point in our society where we can stay in our own little silos and, you know, let everybody else be who they are. Right. And, and deal with their own people. I mean, and that's the kind of attitude that we really have to get around is that if we're gonna serve the public, we have to be ready for everyone who walks in the door. And we also need to realize that, that people who have , uh, disabilities, who have learning disabilities, who have physical disabilities, they also need to be treated with, with this kind of d e i equitable treatment because their priorities are gonna be the same and they're gonna , they're gonna be just as valid and just as important to them as some of these ethnic or, or sexual , uh, minorities that we talk about all the time. So it , it , it is a whole lot more than just race or sexual preference. Yeah . Or, or gender identity. It is the whole Aly of human living mm-hmm . <affirmative> and everybody needs to be honored and treated as if they are just as important as we think that we ourselves are.
Speaker 1:Yeah . I , I think that's important also because when I've traveled or or speak to colleagues around the country, and I've somebody from the upper Michigan Peninsula, so, and they , well, you know, our board, our local , it's just a local board, a thousand member local board. We we're not a very diverse group. So I'm not really sure how, and I've heard this how, you know, a D e I initiative would play in our area cuz you know, it's not a very diverse crowd. And I would say, well, it's way more diverse than you think most likely. Right. <laugh> . So, I mean it's like , first of all, you have men and women, right? Oh yeah, of course you have Catholics and Protestants probably. Oh yeah, of course, of course. You have people from dif maybe born in different states that moved there . Oh yeah. We got a and I was and there's a lot that you don't even know I said. So yeah, if you just have to, I think take a more global view of what diversity actually means before we can actually honor the individual
Speaker 5:And , and Chuck , when you start to realize that, you start to realize that if we, if we, if we segment ourselves, if we go to some of, of what some of our political leaders are trying to do and segment us into different pieces, we're we are going to shatter, we are gonna shatter into, into, into many thousands of different pieces if we start to draw those lines. Because everybody, if you think about it in certain ways, everybody has a different perspective on what fair treatment is mm-hmm . <affirmative> and on how they want to be treated. And it , we just need to stop drawing lines. We need to stop making distinctions. We need to treat everybody like the beautiful, wonderful human that they can be and give them the dignity and the equitable treatment that I think we all deserve and that we all expect for ourselves.
Speaker 1:And that's the inclusion part I think as well. So what does success look like, Terry ? I mean , why we're, we're doing this, this is a relatively new initiative of ours or in year three of this, and thank you both again for participating since the very beginning in this initiative and, and we've made strides, I think in our own ability to attract more and a diverse group of members to our committees, for example. And, and coming up into the board of directors Waynes on our executive committee this year and hopefully continue to grow our, our committee structure, our chairs and vice chairs. We've pretty much, we have a good record of I say good record, not perfect of diversity within our leadership ranks we've had in terms of our, who ultimately become president of the , of our state association. And, and that's fine <laugh> , you know, we have, we still have work to do of course. So what, what does success look like? That's a big question, Terry , but I'm, I'm sure you've given it some thought. So I have my own thought on that, but I'd like to hear what, how do you define success? How will we know it and what do we do to get there? Um ,
Speaker 4:Success I think is comes into from different ways of what we are saying . I believe that from a personal , uh, success is you put yourself into the position that can be able to let all the peoples know you are diversified person and you understand this concept. So then , uh, right now I think the great thing is we have, we you we can see more and more activities like di activities, events going on in the community. So I think that's the one thing that all everybody can do is be participated, you know, participating in those events and put yourself out there and then make the people aware that you are the one of them no matter you belong to which group. So then, you know, you put yourself out there, let the people know that you respect them . That's, I think is a very great way for you to tell yourself, I am a success person in that field. Cuz you already put your , you out there and for the, you know, company set of point as a if , uh, I think right now , uh, not, I realize not a lot of , uh, broker brokerage, they are promoting d ei that much. Hmm . Because , you know , uh, each realtors we are associated , uh, affiliated with each broker. If, if your broker a participating for this d e i activity is a promotions, I think it will engage your agents to be participating . Participating ultimately is helping you as a broker to develop your business. I think that's , uh, something that if you are a broker or a leadership of a company that you should look out for that direction. This is the way that, you know, you can grow your own business and also helping more people to engaging with d e I .
Speaker 1:Great . Yeah. Wayne, same question, but in the mean also, I think part of success, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but seems to me has to be how we approach the skeptics <laugh>, right? So winning over some skeptics. And so how do we and and I think it's a learned behavior also. I don't, I I think it's part of our job to explain people why this is a good thing, especially with the skeptics. So kind of can you weave kind of those two into each other?
Speaker 5:Well, certainly I , we, we all know that our industry faces challenges as we move into , uh, more and more of an artificial intelligence future. I mean, you , you did it right at the very beginning, <laugh> and people, I've been, you know, I've been a realtor for 25 years. People were talking about, you know, when when, when people will stop needing realtors for 25 years, it's been, it's been constantly talked about and it hadn't happened yet. And I don't think it ever will as long as we take these challenges seriously and when we, when we no longer feel the need to talk about the differences that we have between us and we focus more on the similarities that we have between us and on the shared values that we have between us and on the shared obligations to help people understand this process and make this process easier and and more transparent to people. And that's all what this is about. This, this is about not, not artificially placing barriers between us and our experience and the cultural values and priorities of our clients. It's about working on shared goals. And, and when we do that, when we're able to do that, people , the public will automatically see the value of having us involved in the process. No matter how that process changes and it will change, it has changed. Um, but as long as we are seen as fair and recognizing the dignity of each person involved in that process, then people will not look for ways to edge us out of it, but actually will look for ways to invite us into it because they'll know that we are the fair, honest broker in the situation. Not to mix our terms here, <laugh> , but you know, to , to be that equitable. Yeah , exactly . Yeah. To be that equitable personality that makes sure that no matter how the system changes, no matter how we ourselves have to do business, we're gonna make sure to the best of our ability that the client's wishes, needs, priorities, heartfelt desires are realized without judgment and without our own values being superimposed on them.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. And I think if I would define success, it's that not, not having to do this, not having to have these conversations anymore because it's so self-evident that and , and unquestioned really when the day that we just unconditionally accept that this is the right thing, then that's how I would success. And I just hope I live long enough to see it <laugh>. But until then, <laugh> , well, we've run out of time as quickly as we thought we would. And you guys, har thank you so much for, for coming, Wayne, same thing. Really did do appreciate your time today. That was some great insight. So thanks again. And unto our listeners, thank you for the privilege of your time. This is Get Bri Estate, the Maryland Realtors podcast. I'm Chuck Caskey , Maryland Realtors, c e o . Thanks as always. To our esteemed producer, Joshua Woodson, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Like us, share us, give us five stars if we've earned them. And most importantly, give us feedback, including guests you'd like us to invite for topics to explore, be kind, stay safe. And to honor this moment, I'd like to leave you with an Islamic proverb that I think sums this up. A lot of different flowers make a bouquet.
